ESP vs Astral Projection thoughts

[Joshua]

*: I noticed today that the Mentalism (ESP) talent and Astral Projection ritual have functionally the same wording, aside from their origins, and it got me to wondering if there was any narrative difference in effect and interactions. I'm assuming that ESP functions sorta like a D&D 'scrying sensor' (Invisible, but arcane sight or w/e might permit noticing that 'something is watching') as opposed to Astral Projecting which permits a ghostly image, but both are invisible and intangible by default.
Mechanically, I've noted three differences, namely: Astral projection is banish-able, while ESP does not mention it; ESP can permit taking other (physical) actions while Astral Projection leaves you body unconscious; and ESP Perception is x2 Willpower minus range penalties, while Astral Projection uses full perception value but is harder to cast with distance. So they sound different enough to be different things, but some clarity on the observed effect of ESP would be appreciated.

Going to do a little reading, but rather than make a lot of comments on the IC boards...

Also of note, Astral Projection involved a horror check to lose sanity. (All spells in Cthulhu do, equal to their level. In this case 3 san, vs will x 2.)

Some thoughts:
Theme:

• ESP is people taking a moment and observing things remotely. In general, psychic powers are weaker than magic, but less dangerous. Also, I need to have ways that help enforce the mystery without allowing too many easy solutions.
• As this is a low magic setting, magic is rare, powerful, hard to stop, and has a price. Magic can be an easy solution, but using it properly isn't easy to begin with.

Ease of Use:

• Technically, ESP requires a separate roll for everything you wish to perceive. Since you're not there, you scry on the person, then where they are, then the objects their interacting with, etc... This is a little silly, but the autosuccesses is really REALLY useful here. It does mean that if you're at a range that's not an automatic success (IE: you have less than 2 dice after penalties) then ESP is in short bursts and simple impressions and requires a lot of rolls.
• Astral is a ritual that sends you out of your body. The difficulty is in getting there. Once you're there, you have much more freedom to observe and watch.

Vulnerability:

• As both allow you to see things that cannot be unseen, please note that you can lose sanity by looking at things with horror ratings with both of these. In addition, some places are steeped with corruption (like the corners and some places underground), using ESP or Astral is the same as entering that place. For ESP, I'd be more likely to give a chance to cut off the connection before you finish creating the viewing window.
• ESP is scrying in that you are not spiritually there. So, damage is unlikely to carry over*... That being said, an ESP viewing is a connection between your body and the remote place, I'm sure something can stab through that**.
• With Astral Projection you are there in spirit. In addition to banishment, anything capable of eating souls** can actually damage you. Soul eating is more-or-less sanity damage and/or Corruption. I'm not a big fan of insta-kills, but, depending on the size of what you punch, yeah.

Detection:

• In general, dogs, cats, horses and really bad things** can detect ESP use. Second Sight allows detection of the scrying person, as well as the direction to his body / impression of where the body is. If it comes up, I'm sure dueling ESPers is neat and should be a thing.
• Astral has 3 options, this fluff text is not choosable by the character, there are 2-3 different variants of the spell, which would all need to be learned. So, the variant where you possess a small animal is different from one where you appear as a ghost. Technically, these spells invoke different Old Ones (the animal variant likely the Goat in the Woods or similar). If you're in an animal body, people can see the animal. The others, work similar to ESP.

So, that's my basic thoughts. Some of them are a little nerfy***, but this is a horror and mystery setting. It also means that the places where things would be more difficult are the exception and where mythos occurs, so... opinions?
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*: Damaging through a use of ESP would require something that could teleport (like a dimensional shambler), something that can attack remotely (like a Voodoo doll), or just something that doesn't care (I'm fairly certain and Old One can just hit you if you scry on them). Something that attacks by being looked at (like a medusa) would likely have to deal with the ESP penalty.
**: Again, actual monsters are kinda weird in Cthulhu, so... we'll see. Blasting people remotely observing them is kinda a staple of the genre... Hopefully we can keep it interesting.
***: There are two conflicting themes in the game: Pulp and Mystery. Hopefully we can find a balance that everyone finds fun.

[kitsunenotsume]

Ok, so it looks like so-far nothing unexpected.

I figured that if a Mythos creature or effect wanted to cause issues for a viewer of either type, they could; and that any ritual in the setting has the effect of being a ritual (in addition to anything else it causes).

I mostly figured I'd get the conversation started since it seems probable that someone with ESP will be crossing paths with a character with Second Sight in the not-too-distant future, and while I have no idea how it's going to turn out, I doubt Augustus does either.

Sorry if I caused issues when I stuck it in the post, but I was kinda tired and a bit of chain-of-thought posting.

[Joshua]

Don't worry about it. In general, if you want to debate though, a link to here is nice. Short questions work good on the IC board, longer ones that have multiple replies

Uh, so two other thoughts:
Targeting:

• For ESP, traditionally, one needs a link to the target. friendship, a personal item, etc. It's one reason why you probably couldn't scry on 'the killer'. That being said, a cryptic vision to help get people unstuck isn't too bad, and this is one way to do it. Also, something like using the serpent person body to find other serpent people, probably would work but have a penalty.
• Astral has a bit of the above, plus, since it's actually you up and walking around, you can simply travel there. The variants where you possess an animal* are likely easier to do this with.

Combos:

• ESP is like looking at someone through binoculars. You still have to deal with distance if you want to use any other power 'through' it.
• Astral, as stated, puts you there. if you have abilities that will work without you being physical, then you may use them.

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*: If it matters, Lastfell city sections have rats, pigeons, crows, cats, dogs and most urban animals. There are likely fewer than one might expect in a city that size, but they are there. The crop levels do have livestock of most kinds, and such. Some things like wolves are almost unheard of, but there is a small deer herd, and some ducks. (Cause apparently the mi-go wanted lastfell to have game meat...)

[Joshua]

So, for ESP, and the taking other actions, my thought is that anything that takes thought or effort counts. A simple relay of what's happening likely doesn't count, thinking of your average seance / remote viewing scene. It's possible you'd accidentally leave something out, but listening isn't that bad.

[Joshua]

Well, I mentioned pulp vs mystery before, so as such... I need some way to set things as 'off limits' to scrying.

Current thoughts:

Elder Sign: This creates a penalty to using powers into an area when etched around it. Honestly, that works fairly well. It requires the person to be a sorcerer, so... there is that.

For Superscience, I"m thinking tok'l metal is psi-dead. It's got wonky physics and intertia stuff, so I don't see it begin affected by telekinesis. This gives a tech way to make a psionic Faraday cage. On the plus side, tok'l metal needs to be in constant motion or never moved. As such, it would work for rooms, but not vehicles or weapons, and a personal shield would be impossible (or would explode rather quickly).

These might be sufficient, as they allow for locked rooms people would have to physically visit... The big thing is to not overuse them. For Ms. Ryan's hidden room, it makes a sort of sense to me. It also means she possesses wealth greater that the building she's living in and used it to be paranoid.